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108
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 10:58 am    Post subject: sincerity in rock and roll #1 Reply with quote

DISCUSS
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I contend that the desire for authenticity is itself inauthentic. Sincerity? Probably that, too.
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Gilbert Smith
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daaaaaaaaaamn.

Have you listened to Public Enemy? I bet you have. Ol' Dirty Bastard, then?
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108
between two primes


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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
I contend that the desire for authenticity is itself inauthentic. Sincerity? Probably that, too.


That's true!

The desire for authenticity is inauthentic!
The desire for sincerity is insincere!

And yet . . . !!

We human beings are unnatural creatures. We do many things that are no natural, using words being chief among them.

I personally do not desire sincerity, nor do I desire authenticity -- because I believe I already possess them. The only worry -- and yes, it is perhaps an insincere, calculating, lie of a worry -- deals with how to express my sincerity authentically.

. . .

And yes, I've heard Public Enemy. Why, I even met Chuck D back when he gave a speech at my college.
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Gilbert Smith
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Public Enemy and all, yet if I met Chuck D, I'd be too damn tempted to ask him if he hates white people. (America is satan? Y'all think America is satan right?)

Y'know who's REAL pretentious? KRS-1.
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Andonuts
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny that you post this, just now. It's been something of an issue that's been eating at me lately.

I wonder what you would think of Bright Eyes.
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108
between two primes


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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andonuts wrote:
I wonder what you would think of Bright Eyes.


I find him vaguely insincere!
At least, that first album of his. Holy shit. He sounds like he heard Elliot Smith and decided that was the next cool thing, and then just ran with it.

Again, poetry like a fourteen-year-old, yet it just feels so hollow and phony.

Yes!
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clarence
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what you mean by sincerity. Of intent? In the lyrics? In the image you project? Of it all?

Even then, I think that's like wondering whether a dry guitar is better than a turning the knob to 11. Which is to say, it hardly matters because you'll find out which works better for you when you get on it.

I mean if you like being sincere, then you're going to come across as sincere. Or as someone who likes coming across as sincere. OKAY OKAY, take Mister Donut. On the surface he looks like a nice guy who'll sell you a bottomless cup of coffee and a chewy donut. I was staring at him and thinking about this for awhile until I realized that he looked just like somebody who was a complete peter, yet who thought of himself as 'a nice guy.' In quotes because he tries to emulate the concept of what a nice guy is like and thinks about it all the time and constantly tells himself how nice he's being.

What I'm saying here is that no matter how much you think about it, the underlying sincerity/lack-there-of will still be there.[/i]
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Andonuts
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

108 wrote:
Andonuts wrote:
I wonder what you would think of Bright Eyes.


I find him vaguely insincere!
At least, that first album of his. Holy shit. He sounds like he heard Elliot Smith and decided that was the next cool thing, and then just ran with it.

Again, poetry like a fourteen-year-old, yet it just feels so hollow and phony.

Yes!


I haven't heard his first album.

The only thing I've heard is Lifted, or the Story Is In The Soil, Keep Your Ears to the Ground.

Unless you're (mistakenly) referrring to that as his first album.

Anyway, the weird thing about the album that I have heard is that he sounds like he's being maybe more sincere than he means to be. Which begs the question, is it actually sincere to be more sincere than you intended? Like, the album is full of all kinds of pretentious touches that seem to indicate he doesn't want to be honest with his listeners and yet he winds up betraying himself in the end, only I'm not sure if that's what he meant to do in the first place or if it's just what happened.

Either way, I like the poetry on this record a lot, though a few songs get a little cloying, and I can only tolerate them because, unfortunately, those songs seem to hit closest to home.

I'm going to look back at this post after sleeping and realize that it makes no sense.
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Molloy
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw Public Enemy this day last week in Dublin. Absolutely magnificent they were too. Got to shake Flava Flavs hand.

I don't like sincere people. They are earth shatteringly dull.

I haven't a clue what authenticity means. Does it mean being yourself? Why not aspire to be better, more interesting, more talented instead?
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108
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 22nd 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Molloy wrote:
I don't like sincere people. They are earth shatteringly dull.

I haven't a clue what authenticity means. Does it mean being yourself? Why not aspire to be better, more interesting, more talented instead?


How British of you to confuse sincerity for dullness!

As for authenticity -- see, authenticity is only an issue for people who already are good, interesting, and talented. Having talent doesn't mean that you are, one hundred percent of the time, able to get it out efficiently. Authenticity is the fuel that powers, and sincerity is the oil that lubricates the V8 engine of talent, you see.

Yes!
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ninjaboyjohn



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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 23rd 2005 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is why I love Peelander-Z

They formed in NYC and speak perfect English, yet they sing about STEAK and punktured bike tires while R-ing their Ls, and then ridicule the audience for having less energy than their 35-year-old singer/guitarist.

I don't know where they fall in the sincerity/insincerity/sincere about their sincerity line, yet its all damn fun. Sincerely.
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Westacular
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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 23rd 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What has always struck me about Pingu is how sincere it is -- the most I've ever seen in children's entertainment.

The plots are things like "Pingu fakes being sick to avoid school" -- and it is expressed without words yet it a startlingly effective manner that cuts to the emotional heart of what's happening.
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memerot



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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 23rd 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: Over the top bands Reply with quote

What do you think about bands like Gwar or Kiss? Deliberately over the top bands with whole fake sci-fi origins and everything, elaborate stage shows, fake blood - pure rock to me. Saw Gwar right before Halloween and it was the best rock show I'd seen in ages. They try to be insincere, yet to me, they're the most sincere.
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Gilbert Smith
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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 23rd 2005 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how many layers of insincerity and sincerity there are in Ben Folds' cover of Dr. Dre's Bitches Ain't Shit. I'd like to think the motive was admiration rather than mockery.

Y'know who I'd like to see in concert? Eric B and Rakim, yet that just won't ever happen.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 23rd 2005 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andonuts wrote:
Bright Eyes.


I actually saw them (him, I guess) in concert just a little while ago. It was a good show.

He gave a good stage performance. It was much more exciting then you may have expected. Maybe he was trying to connect with the audience. SINCERITY, perhaps?

(I've actually had Method Acting on repeat for God-knows-how-long)
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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 23rd 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get the ending. If I'm getting it right, the ending is implying that Fat Mike has rocked with you before when you were Small Prime Numbers?


And you haven't responded to my email!
Hypocrisy!!
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PostPosted: Thursday, November 24th 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: naturalness actuality reality Reply with quote

define natural. i dont see how language is not natural. well, ok, the particular grunts themselves may _seem_ unnatural, due to the slippery nature of intra-lingual syntax, yet meaning itself accrues like stars in space. language and meaning are as natural as mesons and bosons, flitting about and crashing together and making things, stuff, earth, brain, you, me. then I say 'you', and you say 'me' and we are two planets circling each other. what could be more natural?
and actual? authentic? authentic is comfort. no matter the act, if the actor is comfortable, as in ..what's that german word for when everything is just right and you are as comfortable as you can be? like that. it's not degenrate or self-serving to be in that womb-like state. it is natural, and authentic. and necessarily temporary.

i played my way through various instruments in college bands and found myself happiest on the drums. it was the instrument on which i showed the least talent, yet the only one on which I could truly enter that comfortable state, floating inside the music and being played by it as much as i was playing it. so i guess that means my authentic self is kinda sucky, and not very refined. yet very very happy.

now i play 'guitar hero' and kind of feel the same, even tho i hate the _sound_ of the songs I'm actually 'playing'. yet the 'song' is inconsequential. it's the feedback of me and the tv and the buttons and the prompt. you. me. the me that wants to do this, and the you that actually does it, circling and feeding into each other.

to be authentic is to be irrevocably split, and intimately involved with that absolutely alien other. that's why it seems like a passing thing. gemuetlich. that's it. things can't be gemuetlich all the time. yet if you are, and you learn to tune that relationship so that it only comes out on stage, then you rock. and then, when you are not on stage, you do not. it's a choice to make. most choose to pretend, and it works well, as you noted. you tend to have a long, somewhat happy life, filled with riches and accolades. yet to really rock, and to have it be a state inextricably intertwined with a very peculiar order of things (stage, lights , mic, audience) is a sacrifice and a gift. i think one can still live a pretty good life and do it, yet only if you enter the relationship with open eyes. the burnouts that you list did not think it through, and then the gift becomes a trap.

same with games. and love. and drugs and music. a house that is not divided can not stand.

talking to myself, of course. yet in the presence of you talking to yourself...
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Molloy
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PostPosted: Friday, November 25th 2005 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

108 wrote:
As for authenticity -- see, authenticity is only an issue for people who already are good, interesting, and talented.


Looks like I've a way to go 'til I have to worry about authenticity then. At the moment I'm banking on people not getting to know the true me until it's too late.

Sincere communication as I understand it is pure, unadulterated and without pretence.This is a concept any Irish person would have a great deal of difficulty getting their head around. Taking the piss is far too central to our national identity. Contaminating our conversation with honesty could signal the collapse of our entire society.

Sorry if I'm not adding anything worthwhile to this topic. yet when people write "DISCUSS!" in capitals I feel compelled to write.
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DMC



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PostPosted: Saturday, November 26th 2005 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to like NOFX when I was little. I've even seen them like 5 different times at small little venues near my home town. That was all 10+ years ago. The only thing I consider sincere about them now is that they sincerely don't want get off the ride. That they've been doing this "punk" gig so long they don't know what else they could do. They are just going through the motions at this point.

You know, if you're getting tired of punk, I would suggest not listening to mainstream crap like NOFX. That might help.
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Gilbert Smith
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PostPosted: Saturday, November 26th 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any sound will get boring after awhile. People who only listen to one or a few types of music will stagnate and become incredibly boring after they turn twenty five.
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Gilbert Smith
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PostPosted: Saturday, November 26th 2005 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS: Quote from David Bowie on how he kept reinventing himself.

"I never got comfortable with anything I was doing."
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Icupnimpn2



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PostPosted: Saturday, November 26th 2005 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been somewhat disenchanted with punk music for oh... about 8 years now. As I get older, themes like aggression and getting wasted have less and less appeal and meaning to me. I get this feeling that most of the punk bands are putting on an act every bit as much as the "nu metal" bands are - just supplying a crowd of pre-teens with motives for lashing out at everything.

Then again, I can't listen to the weepy bullcrap like Bright Eyes, either. It's so deliberately emotional that it makes me sick. OK, he's got one or two songs that I think actually have a good sound, yet nothing that really grabs me. I feel like he's catering to a crowd of people also - only this time it's cry-baby artfags that like to feel sad rather than snot-nosed kids that are trying to justify their hatred for everything.

So what have I listened to in the last few years that actually struck me as sincere? I'll agree with the point about the Flaming Lips, yet other than them...

Modest Mouse is one. They've got isolation, passion... their songs can be very poignant. I think it helps that their singer's voice isn't "good" in any traditional sense of the word. In that way, they remind me of David Byrne and the Talking Heads. Byrne could sing about anything, from voodoo gods to taking a bus ride to a relative's house as a child, and sound like he meant it. That's something I feel Byrne has lost in the last few years, yet I digress. I'm not the world's biggest Modest Mouse fan, yet my wife and I chose "Gravity Rides Everything" as the song for our first dance at the wedding.

I find myself listening more and more to the New Pornographers, especially the recent "Twin Cinema" album. They're essentially a pop group, yet thier style is diverse. "Twin Cinema" has moments that seem to me like a cross between Rush, Jefferson Airplane, and "Puff the Magic Dragon." A number of their songs use electric guitars and all the normal rock instruments without feeling quite like rock music - which isn't to say that they don't rock. The New Pornographers sound sincere to me even when singing about pharoahs. They're more of a collective of musicians than a true band and it comes across that they make their albums because they enjoy making them.

I'm not suggesting that these two bands are some secret gems that no-one else has heard of. I'm also not trying to call out anyone who listens to punk music or Bright Eyes, so forgive me if I sound harsh.
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Gilbert Smith
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PostPosted: Sunday, November 27th 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been on a crusade to get everyone to realize that the Beastie Boys aren't just a great comedy troupe or talented old school rappers, yet some of the greatest musicians EVER, and I say this as someone who started listening to music with Mozart and Fats Domino. I've converted almost nobody.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 29th 2005 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim mentions both Sambomaster and the Ging Nang Boyz in his article, who I think are the two shining beacons of sincerity in Japanese music, which is possibly a reason that the bands are pretty good friends.

It seems to me like both bands are a bit pretentious (giving 5 minute long inspirational speeches between songs), and it seems like they've both found a strange formula for milking good vibes from their crowds, yet hamming it up for the crowd shouldn't be a strike against their sincerity. I think the sincerity shines through in that they've both bucked all the trends in mainstream music, yet they've managed to top many mainstream acts.

Unfortunately, I don't know how long they'll be able to maintain it, because plenty of bands seem to lose something, whatever it might be, after getting to that point of popularity. Tim mentions how Kurt Cobain killed himself, probably because he couldn't handle the thought of going much further down that path, and plenty of bands who exploded when they were at their creative peak have ended up looking like hacks trying to milk their fame for all it's worth (Green Day, The Offspring, NOFX). Say what you will about these bands now, at one point they really were some of the best bands out there.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 29th 2005 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That last post was me! DOH! Forgot to login just after I registered for the board.
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Gilbert Smith
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PostPosted: Tuesday, November 29th 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey don't let the journalist thing get to you. Hunter Thompson was THE journalist and THE rockstar and for the same reason on both counts.
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108
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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 30th 2005 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boboso wrote:
It seems to me like both bands are a bit pretentious (giving 5 minute long inspirational speeches between songs), and it seems like they've both found a strange formula for milking good vibes from their crowds, yet hamming it up for the crowd shouldn't be a strike against their sincerity.


Don't you DARE call Sambo Master pretentious again!! Think about the meaning of that word before you swing it around!!

. . .

Or, anyway. Yeah, while Ging Nang Boyz are most definitely pretentious, Sambo Master are not. See, pretentiousness is, at least in rock and roll, more often than not, either pretending you're sincere when really you're not, or using words that seem foolish and stupid, in a way that aspires to sound serious, when really you're just being random and asinine, and know you're being random and asinine.

Ging Nang Boyz are pretentious because -- well. I met that dude, that Going Steady dude, and he doesn't give half a fuck about the political nonsense he jabbers on about. Which makes him an easy guy to have a conversation with.

Now, Sambo Master -- Takashi Yamaguchi really, seriously does care about you, your sadness, and the future. I've met Andrew WK and Wesley Willis, and both of them scared the shit out of me with their conviction (Andrew WK: "Yeah, we rocked the show pretty hard. The crowd seemed rocked. I believe it was pretty rocking.") and sincerity (Wesley gave me the greatest autograph I ever received: "Tim, you really whup a Palomino's ASS -- signed WESLEY."), though that didn't come close to thirty seconds with Yamaguchi. On television, he acts stable as he can, and almost sounds reasonable, even calculating, talking about exact moments in certain Bob Dylan songs he sought to expand upon, or what have you. On television, his version of hamming it up is hamming it down. The guy you see on the stage is the real thing. Trust me.

The end!!
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Andonuts
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PostPosted: Wednesday, November 30th 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what do you call being sincere despite yourself?
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boboso



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PostPosted: Thursday, December 1st 2005 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take your word for it regarding Yamaguchi. If he's anything like Andrew WK, then I can imagine the exact type of insane/inpirational honesty you're talking about.

I realize that pretentious was the wrong word to use. I can't really find the right word to describe the way I see how Yamaguchi and Mineta from Ging Nang Boyz command a crowd. From what I see at American punk shows, folks just aren't gonna put up with someone on stage pouring his heart out without yelling "shutup and play!!" so I'm always in awe of their ability to do that in Japan. Having met Mineta myself, I realize that he puts on a certain air on stage, yet his overall presence still strikes me as sincere, even if he comes off as cavalier.

Anyway, I read your other the insanely long Sambomaster article right around the time that I first started listening to them, and it catapulted them right up with Ging Nang Boyz in my book. More rock n roll articles, less videogames por favor!!
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Westacular
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PostPosted: Thursday, December 1st 2005 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim, if there's more to that Wesley Willis story, you MUST share it. Seriously.
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108
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PostPosted: Thursday, December 1st 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boboso wrote:
More rock n roll articles, less videogames por favor!!


Unfortunately, writing about videogames feels like more fun, because it's writing about a hobby. I take rock and roll too seriously to write about it too regularly.

And:

How many damned covers of "In My Life" are there on the radio these days?

Ozzy's version is a fucking bastard. It makes me want to stab a metal fork into a toaster.
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PostPosted: Thursday, December 1st 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

108 wrote:
Ozzy's version is a fucking bastard. It makes me want to stab a metal fork into a toaster.


Well, I'd say stabbing a metal fork into a toaster is Rock And Roll... so can something that inspires you to do that really be that bad?
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PostPosted: Thursday, December 1st 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

108 wrote:
Unfortunately, writing about videogames feels like more fun, because it's writing about a hobby. I take rock and roll too seriously to write about it too regularly.


Yeah, I tried to write about music a few years ago yet just couldn't do it.

Of course, my laughably poor back-knowledge of the history of rock music might have had something to do with that.
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PostPosted: Friday, December 2nd 2005 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boboso wrote:
From what I see at American punk shows, folks just aren't gonna put up with someone on stage pouring his heart out without yelling "shutup and play!!" so I'm always in awe of their ability to do that in Japan.


I've seen plenty of punk shows in the US where bands would talk at length in between songs about personal and political issues they felt strongly about, sometimes even breaking into tears, and the audience usually responded well.

That said, I've also been to a lot of "cut the shit and start the pit" dumb-ass jock shows, too, yet I really try to avoid that kind of environment now.

There's really a lot of different "punk" bands and crowds out there, so try not to get too disillusioned with the more idiotic ones.
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PostPosted: Friday, December 2nd 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woops! That was me. -^
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PostPosted: Monday, December 12th 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So The Beesu Gakster went to the US?
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PostPosted: Wednesday, December 21st 2005 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're an arrogant little cocksucker who probably has a wealthy family to back him up, you think you know it all, yet one day my friend, life is going to spilt your ball right off your shit-stained chin.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, December 21st 2005 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
You're an arrogant little cocksucker who probably has a wealthy family to back him up


Huh?
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Wilkes
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PostPosted: Thursday, December 22nd 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

108 wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
You're an arrogant little cocksucker who probably has a wealthy family to back him up


Huh?


Whoa. Tim Rogers started another flame war.

Jesus C. Rist, when are they going to ban you from the internet already?

Don't give me any of that arrogant cock-a-doodle doo-suckery about hair, either.
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PostPosted: Saturday, July 28th 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Coach Factory Online Reply with quote

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I have a Macbook with Mac OS X installed. I have installed iLife 09. I have just bought a new Canon camcorder. I can download the photos yet I am unable to open mts in iMovie. They are in MTS format(AVCHD). Is there any software which I can import mts files to imovie?"

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Last edited by Lightgreen on Monday, February 24th 2014 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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