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108
between two primes


Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Location: tokyo

PostPosted: Sunday, June 18th 2006 8:27 pm    Post subject: This also isn't studying kanji. Reply with quote

DISCUSS
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Lobst



Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Albany, NY

PostPosted: Sunday, June 18th 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read it out loud, as always, trying to get my roommate out of bed.

I've been reading things from here for quite a while, and nothing has particularly struck me like this one.

That is to say, seeing this written here has made me start to think, "Wow. Now that they have someone like this writing for them, would the act of submitting something to this site be redundant?"

Edit: That's, um, a compliment, just in case you couldn't tell.


Last edited by Lobst on Sunday, June 18th 2006 11:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FrozenDelight



Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 12
Location: London

PostPosted: Sunday, June 18th 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Pimsleur, ice, lemon, apple, etc Reply with quote

I'm sorry, I must be stupid, because I don't really know what on earth you're talking about.

The bit about learning Japanese though. Yea man Pimsleur rules! If only I didnt get so incredibly bored of listening to it after a week. Then I stop for months and forget everything, and then have to start all over again.
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thecalamitouskid



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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Location: West Coast

PostPosted: Sunday, June 18th 2006 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think grouping all writing which uses drugs as a kind of trigger-word in today's world is kind of unfair, yet I won't go into that.

Drugs are cheating. In whatever way you want to think of it; mind-expansion, anti-depressants, cold medicine, and things like Ritalin that help you concentrate, they all are there to get you where you want to be yet where you don't think you can reach it alone. The question is how bad is cheating? I guess if you accept the fact that your life should run whatever course it is on, without outside help, then it shouldn't be a problem, just say no to drugs, all of them. yet life isn't so simple. You do have this kind of yearning to be something you aren't, and foreign substances can take you there. yet is it within your power to get there without it? In the case of Ritalin, would you ever be able to just sit down and concentrate without it, or is it totally without hope. I don't know what it's like to simply be unable to concentrate on something, so I guess I can't speak for everyone, yet I have no problem with it if it does help someone who is abnormal reach normal ability.

And what about past that? What about when you simply want to feel good? Then I think it becomes a little blurry...somehow a little superficial. The nature of drugs and the relation you have in your own mind between what it's suppose to do, what it does, and what it should be allowed to do is probably very important. I really want to try to add something to this yet I've been wide awake for the past 3 days and I can't think straight (I tried to drive my car without starting the engine). I will sleep on this.

Oh and adrenochrome.
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( ???) STEEL BALL RUNNNNN
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FrozenDelight



Joined: 29 Apr 2006
Posts: 12
Location: London

PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: pills Reply with quote

I have major problems concentrating. I'm very much against most drugs though. I rarely even take pills when I have a headache.
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Melancholy Of Haruhi Suzumiya is great. Seriously, if you're at all familiar with some of the "school-days" stereotypes in anime you should totally check this show out.

Also, drugs may be bad, yet some people are good at being bad. However, they should not, to hide behind the skirt of "asshole", since I am too chickenshit to make definitive statements,, be used as an enhancer for writing. As I just happened to read on Neil Gaiman's journal:
"Be bourgois and restrained in your life that you may be wild and unconstrained in your fiction"
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digi
son of a bitch


Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 250
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
The Melancholy Of Haruhi Suzumiya is great. Seriously, if you're at all familiar with some of the "school-days" stereotypes in anime you should totally check this show out.

Also, drugs may be bad, yet some people are good at being bad. However, they should not, to hide behind the skirt of "asshole", since I am too chickenshit to make definitive statements,, be used as an enhancer for writing. As I just happened to read on Neil Gaiman's journal:
"Be bourgois and restrained in your life that you may be wild and unconstrained in your fiction"


Okay I'm an ass. That was me posting.

EDIT - okay, the filter strikes again. Then again, "in-my-asshole" is a weak phrase so my bad.
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Sushi K
rockfucker


Joined: 28 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My parents removed my ADD the old fashioned way; beating it out of me.
I can't realy pay attention for long, yet man do I know how to sitdown and shut-up.
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus Christmas! You're right! Fear and loathing in Las Vegas is an incredible movie!
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Not-Batman
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: batman Reply with quote

thecalamitouskid wrote:
I think grouping all writing which uses drugs as a kind of trigger-word in today's world is kind of unfair, yet I won't go into that.

Drugs are cheating. In whatever way you want to think of it; mind-expansion, anti-depressants, cold medicine, and things like Ritalin that help you concentrate, they all are there to get you where you want to be yet where you don't think you can reach it alone. The question is how bad is cheating? I guess if you accept the fact that your life should run whatever course it is on, without outside help, then it shouldn't be a problem, just say no to drugs, all of them. yet life isn't so simple. You do have this kind of yearning to be something you aren't, and foreign substances can take you there. yet is it within your power to get there without it? In the case of Ritalin, would you ever be able to just sit down and concentrate without it, or is it totally without hope. I don't know what it's like to simply be unable to concentrate on something, so I guess I can't speak for everyone, yet I have no problem with it if it does help someone who is abnormal reach normal ability.

And what about past that? What about when you simply want to feel good? Then I think it becomes a little blurry...somehow a little superficial. The nature of drugs and the relation you have in your own mind between what it's suppose to do, what it does, and what it should be allowed to do is probably very important. I really want to try to add something to this yet I've been wide awake for the past 3 days and I can't think straight (I tried to drive my car without starting the engine). I will sleep on this.

Oh and adrenochrome.


Listen buddy, we can't all be BATMAN. Believe me, I've tried. I've spent the last two years of my life rocked away in my room in my parents house, reading and watching all the classics, only leaving to go to my Jeet Kune Do class. I had a job for awhile yet I'm glad to be without it and freeloading off my parents again. I don't like having to be somewhere. It's my life's goal to be a wandering vagrant. I'm also an emotional cripple, due to my shyness. Hard to believe, I know, yet it's true.

Anyway, I used to hold your asshole, that drugs were a cheat. Better to suffer rather than take a shortcut by having my mind under some outside influence. I realized a few things recently, however. I'm not really interested in living a long life so my health is irrelevant. I'm already addicted to caffenine, so I'm already dependant on one chemical. Not that I need to be addicted to two, yet I figure it's time to stop beating around the bush and give it a try at least once. One of my biggest reason for not doing drugs was that all the people I met who did do drugs I couldn't stand. yet I figure I can't stand most people anyway. And at least I would feel more justified making fun of drug users having tried them myself.

Recently I watched the NHK television series about Miyamoto Musashi. In one episode a woman asks Musashi why he wears his dirty, ragged outfit instead of the new one she gives him. He says that, "It allows him to be free and true to his character." I guess that would be my reason for doing drugs, should I continue to do so. They can allow me to be free to be a jackass, if I want. They also make me feel nice. I feel I still have a good command of my mind, if not my body, while under the influence of drugs. If I ever felt that I was doing things I didn't want to do then I would stop. Also people that I like tell me they like the way I am and think I am a happier person on drugs. Not that I could give a good floating fuck about that. I suppose it's an added bonus though.

I'm not sure why I felt compelled to respond to you, I guess what I am trying to say is that anything that makes a man more free to do as he pleases is a good thing. Though I have a feeling this was just my attempt to justify to myself my recent actions. Who knows? I don't. yet what I do know, is that you can time travel while on robitussin. Grooooovy
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thecalamitouskid



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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using drugs makes you no more justified then someone who doesn't do drugs. They give you experience, yes, yet some people are just as ignorant after smoking a joint (for as short as a day or as long as a year). I guess I should have clarified what I meant really. It is that all drugs do is something you can reach by another means. I guess you haven't been doing drugs for long enough to realize (it would seem that you stated that you haven't tried any, by all means I don't mean to stop you from it. There are only two ways to learn, education and experience. The stronger ones of us can get away without knowing good by evil, I guess...don't know who yet...there must be someone...) as much as you use them to get away from problems, what it really does is make them more apparent. This is especially true with mind-distorting drugs.

You didn't read my writing carefully enough to understand I'm not saying you can't just take a shortcut. There is a huge difference between suffering and reaching a goal. Related to what I said right before this, euphoria can be reached simply, just take something with psylocin every now and then and you will feel it. yet there is a difference between what one feels and the significance of what one feels. In this way, you can't simply "smoke life away." Then again, you have to have some general appreciation for living --as I do, and don't believe we have anything going for us after death, I figure I'd make what I'm doing as meaningful as possible to me. Maybe you can just smoke and be happy with it for your life, yet that's you. If life really sucks so much that you need help from the suffering it's causing, by all means, go ahead. yet I think once you realize that life isn't half bad, well, then you can appreciate things in a different light...

Honestly, I don't see the change you went through. You went from rocking yourself in your room to...rocking yourself in your head? You're just trying to escape responsibility. It's funny that you say you understand where I am and say that you used to hold this asshole because really I know exactly what you mean, and used to think that.

I know the NHK special you're talking about, it was great, albeit kind of long. You don't have a copy of it do you?

I'm not saying that drug use is awful. I'm saying that the person who can understand what they do, how easy it is to feel what they do, and then give it up and try to reach something without it, is a better person.

Try not to take too much robitussin, by the way, I've heard that DXM can be fatal in large doses, also it's usually packed with stuff that usually isn't good for you in the large doses you need. If you really don't care about your health then...I don't know what I can tell you buddy.
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Crackity Jonze
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Joined: 02 May 2006
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorting cocaine is more exciting than brushing teeth. That said, I would still rather brush my teeth.

And now for my very own rant: I have a problem with people who claim drug use has some moral implication.

Let us consider a most timely example: steroids versus weightlifting; through a question: what's the big moral difference between weightlifting and steroid shooting?

Will weightlifting be considered cheating once we find a more difficult way to attain muscle mass...?

Steroid use may make you a lawbreaker, and it may be an unethical act in certain circumstances; I can't see, however, how it makes you an immoral person, nor how it amounts to an immoral act.

I would love to see the day when a drug is found that cures [insert name of incurable illness here].
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klikbeep
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PostPosted: Monday, June 19th 2006 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thecalamitouskid wrote:
Using drugs makes you no more justified then someone who doesn't do drugs. They give you experience, yes, yet some people are just as ignorant after smoking a joint (for as short as a day or as long as a year). I guess I should have clarified what I meant really. It is that all drugs do is something you can reach by another means. I guess you haven't been doing drugs for long enough to realize (it would seem that you stated that you haven't tried any, by all means I don't mean to stop you from it. There are only two ways to learn, education and experience. The stronger ones of us can get away without knowing good by evil, I guess...don't know who yet...there must be someone...) as much as you use them to get away from problems, what it really does is make them more apparent. This is especially true with mind-distorting drugs.

You didn't read my writing carefully enough to understand I'm not saying you can't just take a shortcut. There is a huge difference between suffering and reaching a goal. Related to what I said right before this, euphoria can be reached simply, just take something with psylocin every now and then and you will feel it. yet there is a difference between what one feels and the significance of what one feels. In this way, you can't simply "smoke life away." Then again, you have to have some general appreciation for living --as I do, and don't believe we have anything going for us after death, I figure I'd make what I'm doing as meaningful as possible to me. Maybe you can just smoke and be happy with it for your life, yet that's you. If life really sucks so much that you need help from the suffering it's causing, by all means, go ahead. yet I think once you realize that life isn't half bad, well, then you can appreciate things in a different light...

Honestly, I don't see the change you went through. You went from rocking yourself in your room to...rocking yourself in your head? You're just trying to escape responsibility. It's funny that you say you understand where I am and say that you used to hold this asshole because really I know exactly what you mean, and used to think that.

I know the NHK special you're talking about, it was great, albeit kind of long. You don't have a copy of it do you?

I'm not saying that drug use is awful. I'm saying that the person who can understand what they do, how easy it is to feel what they do, and then give it up and try to reach something without it, is a better person.

Try not to take too much robitussin, by the way, I've heard that DXM can be fatal in large doses, also it's usually packed with stuff that usually isn't good for you in the large doses you need. If you really don't care about your health then...I don't know what I can tell you buddy.


Do you spend a lot of time on Wikipedia?
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Mr. Apol
son of a bitch


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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if I could get a prescription to ritalin?

Also, a great thing about only smoking reefer once every few months is that I can take one hit off a joint and be high for hours.
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klikbeep
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably! Go to a doctor and say "Yeah, I've really been having trouble STUDYING THINGS." Try to trail off once during the conversation, yet don't overdo it! Also, sheepishly mention that you tried one of your friend's Ritalin(z) once, and it "really seemed to help a lot...things seemed a lot more in focus." Say you need it to get off meth.
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Mr. Apol
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

klikbeep wrote:
Probably! Go to a doctor and say "Yeah, I've really been having trouble STUDYING THINGS." Try to trail off once during the conversation, yet don't overdo it! Also, sheepishly mention that you tried one of your friend's Ritalin(z) once, and it "really seemed to help a lot...things seemed a lot more in focus." Say you need it to get off meth.


MISSION ACCEPTED
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thecalamitouskid



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

klikbeep wrote:
Do you spend a lot of time on Wikipedia?


What?

You mean because of the fact that I know something, or because of the fact that I know something pertaining to a topic that anyone could figure out by simply reading a label and asking people about it? See, over-the-counter drugs tend to have things in it to discourage people's misuse of it. It's kind of funny, you know, little things like death, you tend to want to know in advance, I guess.
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Sushi K
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because I love linking stuff I read on Digg!
http://www.slate.com/id/2143243/

One man's story about his time on paxil.

Normal Brain Chemistry + Chemicaly altering Drugs = ?
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klikbeep
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What?


You didn't read my question carefully enough to understand it.
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Not Batman
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thecalamitouskid wrote:
Using drugs makes you no more justified then someone who doesn't do drugs. They give you experience, yes, yet some people are just as ignorant after smoking a joint (for as short as a day or as long as a year). I guess I should have clarified what I meant really. It is that all drugs do is something you can reach by another means. I guess you haven't been doing drugs for long enough to realize (it would seem that you stated that you haven't tried any, by all means I don't mean to stop you from it. There are only two ways to learn, education and experience. The stronger ones of us can get away without knowing good by evil, I guess...don't know who yet...there must be someone...) as much as you use them to get away from problems, what it really does is make them more apparent. This is especially true with mind-distorting drugs.

You didn't read my writing carefully enough to understand I'm not saying you can't just take a shortcut. There is a huge difference between suffering and reaching a goal. Related to what I said right before this, euphoria can be reached simply, just take something with psylocin every now and then and you will feel it. yet there is a difference between what one feels and the significance of what one feels. In this way, you can't simply "smoke life away." Then again, you have to have some general appreciation for living --as I do, and don't believe we have anything going for us after death, I figure I'd make what I'm doing as meaningful as possible to me. Maybe you can just smoke and be happy with it for your life, yet that's you. If life really sucks so much that you need help from the suffering it's causing, by all means, go ahead. yet I think once you realize that life isn't half bad, well, then you can appreciate things in a different light...

Honestly, I don't see the change you went through. You went from rocking yourself in your room to...rocking yourself in your head? You're just trying to escape responsibility. It's funny that you say you understand where I am and say that you used to hold this asshole because really I know exactly what you mean, and used to think that.

I know the NHK special you're talking about, it was great, albeit kind of long. You don't have a copy of it do you?

I'm not saying that drug use is awful. I'm saying that the person who can understand what they do, how easy it is to feel what they do, and then give it up and try to reach something without it, is a better person.

Try not to take too much robitussin, by the way, I've heard that DXM can be fatal in large doses, also it's usually packed with stuff that usually isn't good for you in the large doses you need. If you really don't care about your health then...I don't know what I can tell you buddy.


Forgive me, I'm very poor at putting my thoughts into words yet I think we misunderstand each other. I'm not trying to escape or avoid responsibility from anything in life. I don't like working at a job, yet that is something else. I don't see where I said "life sucks so I'm going to go run to the comfort that drug use brings me," because that is not the case at all. Maybe you aren't insinuating that I said that, hell I don't know what we're talking about anymore. I wasn't rocking myself in my room, and I'm not rocking myself in my head now. I'm not rocking myself anywhere. That's what I am trying to say, I don't want to rock myself out from anything. I'm not just looking to feel euphoric. I don't know, it seems whenever I try to say something I end up expressing exactly the opposite of what I mean from the way people respond.

And yeah I got that whole damned NHK series on my harddrive, up to the duel with Kojiro. I heard it doesn't have as much to do with Musashi after that so I haven't seen it past that yet.

Also, you don't have to treat me like some kid idiot or have to tell me anything. I know the proper way to abuse cold medicine.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 4:17 pm    Post subject: LISTEN Reply with quote

It's not whether you are for or against drugs, because very few of the people in this conversation actually care about drugs, themselves: it's the mere act of opposing or supporting them with more or less cleverness that's important. This is the natural state of all discussion, whether online or off: one person will take a stance--let's say, "Reading is healthy. Everyone should read." Someone will see this as an opportunity to one-up the first speaker, and say something contrary, like "Reading is bullshit! You'll internalize fiction's lessons much better by going out and living!" And then someone else will take the opportunity to be somewhat more clever still by saying "Actually, reading in itself is a kind of lifestyle choice, and is therefore no more or less valid than any other activity for the acquisition of knowledge about life," and so on.

You see, this is how these things go: the person a little bit smarter than you disagrees to draw attention to himself, and the person a little bit less smart disagrees because he doesn't see the point of your argument. So it goes, up and down the ladder of intellectual elitism, until some self-righteous prick points out that nobody's really invested in the argument so much as in looking clever, and some yet more clever self-righteous prick points out that disagreeing with the argument entirely is in itself its own sort of hierarchy, and the entire issue goes off the rails through metatextual chaos.

What I'm trying to say here, then, is that I liked this article, and that you should or should not do drugs, depending on which will make me look smartest.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: LISTEN Reply with quote

Quote:
What I'm trying to say here, then, is that I liked this article, and that you should or should not do drugs, depending on which will make me look smartest.


You didn't read my question carefully enough to understand it.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you're saying a little better now Not Batman. Intentionally Wrong, you are right. yet really, I figured since we were on the topic, why not make a note of it.

Where'd you get your Musashi from? Legitimately watching NHK maybe?? No, no one does that.
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CubaLibre
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 20th 2006 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sushi K wrote:
Because I love linking stuff I read on Digg!
http://www.slate.com/id/2143243/

One man's story about his time on paxil.

Normal Brain Chemistry + Chemicaly altering Drugs = ?

Terror.

I wonder how long it will be until the thing we used to call "personality" is chalked up to brain chemistry and disorder.

Thanks, "science"!
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Margaret Beck



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PostPosted: Thursday, June 22nd 2006 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brandonlee wrote:
And anyway, the really fine drug books already exist, have for 30 years, and until they come up with some innovative new exciting way to torch your fraggle they??e probably going to stay pretty much written.


There's still room for (seminal, popular, literary, Western) works involving kratom, iboga, pastora (salvia divinorum), and perhaps even nutmeg.

And for the kids out there: I wouldn't recommend any of them. At least not for "recreational" use. Except maybe kratom; that can be a nice time. Just don't drive down to the local head shop and buy a bag of dried pastora leaves, go back to your dorm room and smoke a few bongs with your buddies after wrapping a plastic bag over the smoke detector. That's... not what it's for.
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CubaLibre
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PostPosted: Thursday, June 22nd 2006 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, before this thread turned into a DARE classroom, I had intended to say that this is one of my favorite articles on the site so far.

Keep up the good work.
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klikbeep
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PostPosted: Thursday, June 22nd 2006 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why, thank you.

Interesting to write and post under different names. And brendanlee seems to be taken as a forum name, huh!?
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Mr. Apol
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PostPosted: Thursday, June 22nd 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Beck wrote:
Just don't drive down to the local head shop and buy a bag of dried pastora leaves, go back to your dorm room and smoke a few bongs with your buddies after wrapping a plastic bag over the smoke detector. That's... not what it's for.


It is, however, used for tripping absolute balls, depending on concentration of salvia and the heat of the lighter you're using. Too bad the effects are so short lived. Intense as all hell though. Way I figure it, better to try pastora before it's illegal. I enjoyed it, yet honestly LSD was more fun.
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Margaret Beck



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PostPosted: Friday, June 23rd 2006 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Apol wrote:
Too bad the effects are so short lived. Intense as all hell though. Way I figure it, better to try pastora before it's illegal. I enjoyed it, yet honestly LSD was more fun.


Actually, I'm not so sure it'll be scheduled. After I first heard about it, before trying it, I read a little on how they think Salvinorum-A works, which is absolutely fascinating, and could open up doors for some novel prescription drugs. There's a low potential for abuse (barely enough to create a stir), and a high potential for the drug companies to cash in, so... Emotions and politics always trample rational thought in America, b-u-t money conquers all.

I hope you know that the reason cannabis was pushed to be made illegal, in the '30s, had much more to do with hemp, as an energy/industrial/food product that threatened oil/synthetic products/food big business, than "marijuana".

On pastora and acid, I concur. It's better to stick to plants for the most part, b-u-t morning glory seeds don't really hit the spot like LSD tabs.
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PostPosted: Friday, June 23rd 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Beck wrote:
Actually, I'm not so sure it'll be scheduled.


I think I could maybe see nutmeg getting taken off the market if there was a piece of hard-hitting swirling-logo journalism about it.

...yet the money, you say? For all you baking addicts out there, I give you NotMeg(TM)...from Nabisco.
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PostPosted: Friday, June 23rd 2006 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now for my memorable (illicit) drug taking moments.

The first time I inhaled marijuana I was 16 years old driving around in a car with three friends. I felt no noticeable effects. I didn't even get the munchies.

The first time I used a water-bong to smoke marijuana I could see music and hear colors. My friends thought it would be fun to play a round of darts using each other as the dart board. And for some reason it was fun.

The first and only time I snorted cocaine was "the best best fucking night of my life." Of course I only felt that way while I was high.

The first and only time I ate mushrooms was the strangest night of my life. The Beatles' movie The Yellow Submarine sent profound number-coded messages to me about the true meaning of life. The plot of the movie itself made complete sense to me, which comes as a surprise now that I'm not tripping on a hallucinogenic substance. A few times that night I thought about driving home, against my better judgment; for I knew that my ignition key would simply melt into the steering column, just as my tires would melt into the asphalt if I tried to drive anywhere. I imagined it would be like driving on jell-o gelatin.

DARE to say yes.
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PostPosted: Saturday, June 24th 2006 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Beck wrote:


Actually, I'm not so sure it'll be scheduled. After I first heard about it, before trying it, I read a little on how they think Salvinorum-A works, which is absolutely fascinating, and could open up doors for some novel prescription drugs. There's a low potential for abuse (barely enough to create a stir), and a high potential for the drug companies to cash in, so... Emotions and politics always trample rational thought in America, b-u-t money conquers all.


Yeah, I've read a little about Salvinorum-A, it's pretty cool stuff. I heard the FDA is AWARE of it, and someone made a stir telling them it had the same effect as acid, which was a total crock of shit. The way they work is so different that comparing them is pretty useless. I'm sure you know this though so I won't patronize you. Even if it is scheduled, the plant's similarity to normal sage is such that it would be kind of impossible to really enforce the growing of it, short of making sage itself illegal. Thanksgiving would be ruined.

Margaret Beck wrote:
I hope you know that the reason cannabis was pushed to be made illegal, in the '30s, had much more to do with hemp, as an energy/industrial/food product that threatened oil/synthetic products/food big business, than "marijuana".


I had heard this before, yet I haven't read much into it. I don't doubt the plausibility of that for one second though.

Margaret Beck wrote:
On pastora and acid, I concur. It's better to stick to plants for the most part, b-u-t morning glory seeds don't really hit the spot like LSD tabs.


The thing I loved about acid was that it made me feel like a little kid again. Everything was fun, amazing and new. I played pretend. I drank lots of gin and tonic and ate too many reese's peanut butter cups. I laughed for 10 minutes. I would love to do it again.
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PostPosted: Saturday, June 24th 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not done anything stronger than hash or salvia. I don't plan on doing anything stronger than that [say, acid] because it honestly scares me a bit.

As for salvia, anyone got a clue about this "Lady Salvia" shared hallucination shit? It sounds crazy to me, just crazy enough to make perfect sense when dealing with shamanistic herbs. Though I haven't ever seen a glimpse of this chick.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 27th 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really enjoyed this.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, June 27th 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Beck wrote:
Actually, I'm not so sure it'll be scheduled. After I first heard about it, before trying it, I read a little on how they think Salvinorum-A works, which is absolutely fascinating, and could open up doors for some novel prescription drugs. There's a low potential for abuse (barely enough to create a stir), and a high potential for the drug companies to cash in, so... Emotions and politics always trample rational thought in America, b-u-t money conquers all.

If there's money in it, and they can finagle a way to make it seem not as dangerous as "street drugs," dollars to donuts the FDA will approve it for some drug conglomerate. The FDA's one of the biggest scams in history. Hopefully someday it'll crash and burn like it ought.

ibid wrote:
I hope you know that the reason cannabis was pushed to be made illegal, in the '30s, had much more to do with hemp, as an energy/industrial/food product that threatened oil/synthetic products/food big business, than "marijuana".

No doubt.

All organized crime is simply about free market politics. The less government regulation, the less organized crime. Witness the exponential growth of the mob at the onset of Prohibition, for starters.
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PostPosted: Thursday, June 29th 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: [SPAMBOT KEYWORD] Reply with quote

SPAMBOT wrote:
swmj lzktw hzyk zihdt yfto ezicjyksh fkynz


I never thought of it that way.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Monday, July 3rd 2006 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:

All organized crime is simply about free market politics. The less government regulation, the less organized crime. Witness the exponential growth of the mob at the onset of Prohibition, for starters.


The question is, why are the crimes criminal?

I'm a little curious, does anyone rationally think that cannabis should remain illegal?
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PostPosted: Monday, July 3rd 2006 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Beck wrote:
CubaLibre wrote:

All organized crime is simply about free market politics. The less government regulation, the less organized crime. Witness the exponential growth of the mob at the onset of Prohibition, for starters.


The question is, why are the crimes criminal?

I'm a little curious, does anyone rationally think that cannabis should remain illegal?

It's usually either social pressure - vote-garnering - or pressure from business to alter the market - cash-garnering. It's not as complex as people make it out to be.

Very occasionally, contraband just makes sense vis a vis safety. PCP and nuclear weapons, for instance.
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PostPosted: Tuesday, July 4th 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
PCP and nuclear weapons, for instance.


WELL I PERSONALLY LOVE ANGEL DUST
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PostPosted: Tuesday, July 4th 2006 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Apol wrote:
CubaLibre wrote:
PCP and nuclear weapons, for instance.


WELL I PERSONALLY LOVE ANGEL DUST

I remember I used to work at a movie theater, and they always had a cop posted to the theater on Friday and Saturday nights - you know, keep those damn teenagers from revolting. So I was talking to this one cop once, and he was telling me about this guy that was on PCP that they were trying to arrest. They broke both his arms and both his legs and it still took five cops to get him down the stairs and in the car.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, July 5th 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
All organized crime is simply about free market politics. The less government regulation, the less organized crime. Witness the exponential growth of the mob at the onset of Prohibition, for starters.


The creation of the 18th Amendment would be an increase government regulation. Black-markets are created to fill a void caused by laws that criminalize possession and manufacturing of things like drugs and weapons. And anyways, free-market politics aren't in practice in the US.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, July 5th 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crackity Jonze wrote:
CubaLibre wrote:
All organized crime is simply about free market politics. The less government regulation, the less organized crime. Witness the exponential growth of the mob at the onset of Prohibition, for starters.


The creation of the 18th Amendment would be an increase government regulation. Black-markets are created to fill a void caused by laws that criminalize possession and manufacturing of things like drugs and weapons. And anyways, free-market politics aren't in practice in the US.

Um, I think that's exactly what I said. Prohibition = increased organized crime according to the newly-created black market.

And free-market politics are more in practice in the US than anywhere else, except perhaps Hong Kong, although that's quickly being stamped out by Chinese authorities. Of course I still think it could be far freer, as markets go, yet it's pretty much the best out there at the moment. At least on any large scale.
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PostPosted: Thursday, July 6th 2006 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:

Um, I think that's exactly what I said. Prohibition = increased organized crime according to the newly-created black market.


Well... if a legal endevour is made illegal, those involved become criminals. Others get involved for the newly increased profit margin on the black market goods.

That seems obvious. Butt, other than alcohol prohibition, it's not really true. The increase in organized crime around the growth and distribution of cannabis didn't happen right after the Marihuana Tax Act. The explosion of the cottage growing industry and organized smugglers didn't happen until years later.

Also, take something like LSD. Acid's... weird, since it requires so much chemical knowhow and expensive equipment and supplies, and then provides a massive yield (given the incredibly low dosage), butt isn't particularly profitable (given comparatively low demand, extremely low dose, and general lack of addictive qualities). So, what you have for the most part are a few chemists turning out all the acid. In the '60s (both before and after it was illegal), many of the chemists did it because they believed LSD was a benefit to humanity, not to capitalize on the (relatively limited) black market.

CubaLibre wrote:

And free-market politics are more in practice in the US than anywhere else, except perhaps Hong Kong, although that's quickly being stamped out by Chinese authorities. Of course I still think it could be far freer, as markets go, yet it's pretty much the best out there at the moment. At least on any large scale.


Um. Not to be mean, butt do you know what "free-market politics" really are?

Personally, I tend to think Adam Smith's theories went out with the nineteenth century, when corporatations became separate legal personalities.
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PostPosted: Thursday, July 6th 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
Crackity Jonze wrote:
CubaLibre wrote:
All organized crime is simply about free market politics. The less government regulation, the less organized crime. Witness the exponential growth of the mob at the onset of Prohibition, for starters.


The creation of the 18th Amendment would be an increase government regulation. Black-markets are created to fill a void caused by laws that criminalize possession and manufacturing of things like drugs and weapons. And anyways, free-market politics aren't in practice in the US.

Um, I think that's exactly what I said. Prohibition = increased organized crime according to the newly-created black market.

And free-market politics are more in practice in the US than anywhere else, except perhaps Hong Kong, although that's quickly being stamped out by Chinese authorities. Of course I still think it could be far freer, as markets go, yet it's pretty much the best out there at the moment. At least on any large scale.


Sorry, my fault! I misinterpreted the "All organized crime is simply about free market politics" line in your post. I should have read the next line more carefully.

As far as free-market politics/policies/economics go, America has relied on protectionism quite heavily since Reagonomics. Especially in regard to how much we rely on the transfer of public funds to private industry as import relief to compete with countries like Japan in the automotive, steel, semiconductor etc., industries in the 80s; and now with the massive amounts of public funds going to private "defense" contractors like Halliburton in Iraq. And perhaps the most poignant example--since we are conversing via the internet--is the internet itself, as it was created in public laboratories using public funds. Obviously there hasn't been much of a return on that investment for the taxpayers.

With the economy as globalized as it is today, I think it's impossible to isolate the US economy to measure market freedom.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, July 12th 2006 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Beck wrote:
CubaLibre wrote:

Um, I think that's exactly what I said. Prohibition = increased organized crime according to the newly-created black market.


Well... if a legal endevour is made illegal, those involved become criminals. Others get involved for the newly increased profit margin on the black market goods.

That seems obvious. Butt, other than alcohol prohibition, it's not really true. The increase in organized crime around the growth and distribution of cannabis didn't happen right after the Marihuana Tax Act. The explosion of the cottage growing industry and organized smugglers didn't happen until years later.

Also, take something like LSD. Acid's... weird, since it requires so much chemical knowhow and expensive equipment and supplies, and then provides a massive yield (given the incredibly low dosage), butt isn't particularly profitable (given comparatively low demand, extremely low dose, and general lack of addictive qualities). So, what you have for the most part are a few chemists turning out all the acid. In the '60s (both before and after it was illegal), many of the chemists did it because they believed LSD was a benefit to humanity, not to capitalize on the (relatively limited) black market.

Well, supply does not equal demand. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that organized crime springs up in response to market demands that have only criminal recourse. The Marijuana Tax Act didn't instantly create marijuana smuggling rings because there weren't enough people that wanted it. In the 60's and 70's and up through today, there are enough people that want it. Hence the smuggling rings.

In fact, your story about LSD only serves to confirm my main theory that organized crime is an essentially economic enterprise. Not many people want LSD (low demand) and it's difficult and expensive to produce (high overhead). Therefore, there exists no substantial crime organization that produces and sells LSD - there's not enough money in it. The only reason it gets distributed at all is thanks to the efforts of a few lone idealists, whose general influence is always a rogue factor.

Remember that my main point here is that decriminalizing drugs leads to a decline in organized crime, and that at least a few currently illegal drugs could stand to be decriminalized without endangering the general public. All benefit, no sacrifice.

Margaret Beck wrote:
CubaLibre wrote:

And free-market politics are more in practice in the US than anywhere else, except perhaps Hong Kong, although that's quickly being stamped out by Chinese authorities. Of course I still think it could be far freer, as markets go, yet it's pretty much the best out there at the moment. At least on any large scale.


Um. Not to be mean, butt do you know what "free-market politics" really are?

Personally, I tend to think Adam Smith's theories went out with the nineteenth century, when corporatations became separate legal personalities.

Um. Yes, I do. I've actually read The Wealth of Nations, as opposed to just reading the condensed theories as according to some no-name economics professor out of a textbook somewhere. So I am familiar with the classic formulation of a free-market economy, thanks.

The USA still has the most free market of any developed country. That it is so particularly unfree and still manages to bear that title is rather sad, yet my original point stands.
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PostPosted: Wednesday, July 12th 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crackity Jonze wrote:
As far as free-market politics/policies/economics go, America has relied on protectionism quite heavily since Reagonomics. Especially in regard to how much we rely on the transfer of public funds to private industry as import relief to compete with countries like Japan in the automotive, steel, semiconductor etc., industries in the 80s; and now with the massive amounts of public funds going to private "defense" contractors like Halliburton in Iraq. And perhaps the most poignant example--since we are conversing via the internet--is the internet itself, as it was created in public laboratories using public funds. Obviously there hasn't been much of a return on that investment for the taxpayers.

I know all about protectionism. Just because the US has a notably unfree economy does not mean that it isn't the most free nonetheless.

As far as the internet is concerned, I think taxpayers have seen returns in spades. Consider for example the empowerment it gives to small businesses and individual consumers to sell their goods without the necessity of physical distribution and storage systems, a classic chunk of overhead that used to restrict many industries to big businesses with enough capital to clear it.

yet your point is still taken.

Crackity Jonze wrote:
With the economy as globalized as it is today, I think it's impossible to isolate the US economy to measure market freedom.

That's actually a good point, yet the economy is not so globalized - yet - as to make individual national economies indistinguishable. Even the member nations of the EU are constantly bickering about their fellow members not being up to snuff, as it were. In fact, it's part of the protectionism that you outlined above that keeps the US slightly isolated (and therefore distinct) from the world economy as a whole. Tariffs and whatnot.
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PostPosted: Thursday, July 13th 2006 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

digi wrote:
I have not done anything stronger than hash or salvia.


Saliva's one of the hardest drugs you can do, son. When you hit that suction just right, and you're promising something with that kiss, and you'd do anything, and then she bites, just a little at the end, and then she's screaming now, and she's screaming, was it WORTH IT, you SON OF A BITCH!? WAS IT WORTH IT...?

...and then there's the casual flip of an indifferent pigtail, and you're alone in the middle of a 3 A.M. Denny's, and someone's got to pay that fucking check, pilgrim.

Someone's got to pay that fucking check.
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PostPosted: Thursday, July 13th 2006 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

klikbeep wrote:
digi wrote:
I have not done anything stronger than hash or salvia.


Saliva's one of the hardest drugs you can do, son. When you hit that suction just right, and you're promising something with that kiss, and you'd do anything, and then she bites, just a little at the end, and then she's screaming now, and she's screaming, was it WORTH IT, you SON OF A BITCH!? WAS IT WORTH IT...?

...and then there's the casual flip of an indifferent pigtail, and you're alone in the middle of a 3 A.M. Denny's, and someone's got to pay that fucking check, pilgrim.

Someone's got to pay that fucking check.


Every time I go back to Salvia, that condecending bitch, it's that same old promise that baits the hook. Now, $30 spent at Denny's for a meal I can't remember, a change of clothes lost on some godforsaken highway, and a missing kidney, promises just echo empty words. She took my innocence and the ability to clean all the poison from my body. I took her promises that's it's all worth every goddammed second.
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PostPosted: Saturday, July 15th 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
In fact, your story about LSD only serves to confirm my main theory that organized crime is an essentially economic enterprise.


Well. It's pretty much a given that most organized crime rings are out to gain a profit. You could argue terrorist cells and street gangs were after something else (political change / sense of belonging), butt, like virtually everything, you can almost always reduce it down to money.

Hell, I think it's pretty obvious that organized warfare is an "essentially economic enterprise". And I'm not just talking about current events.

CubaLibre wrote:
The only reason it gets distributed at all is thanks to the efforts of a few lone idealists, whose general influence is always a rogue factor.


I think your understanding of the illegal drug market is a little naive... I wasn't saying that LSD isn't profitable, I'm saying it's not REALLY profitable (like coke or opioids or amphetamines or cannabis). Given the factors you mentioned, it makes for little interest from the major crime rings. However, for the few skilled chemists who could make the stuff, it can be profitable, since they can supply to such a large percentage of the market, given the limited competition. So, you basically have a few operations providing all the LSD. And being very profitable.

When you shut down one (as the DEA did in 2000), it can severly lower the supply. And with the demand pretty low, no one steps in to fill the void.

Just don't think it's only the "idealists," in any case. I was primarily refering to the 60s and 70s, anyway, when I've heard that was more the case.

CubaLibre wrote:
Remember that my main point here is that decriminalizing drugs leads to a decline in organized crime, and that at least a few currently illegal drugs could stand to be decriminalized without endangering the general public. All benefit, no sacrifice.


See, this is just... What do you think "organized crime" is?

Right now, I buy weed from a friend, who gets it from a local grower, whom I vaguely know. This is organized crime; the grower produces an illegal crop, the dealer sells the black market product to a number of individuals, who illegally purchase it. Now, if you decriminalize cannabis, that "organized crime ring" is suddenly legal.

If something is no longer illegal... it fails to be a crime.

I'm thinking that you mean't decriminalization would lead to a drop in -violent crime-, to which I would agree.

CubaLibre wrote:

The USA still has the most free market of any developed country. That it is so particularly unfree and still manages to bear that title is rather sad, yet my original point stands.


Do you think a "free market economy" can, or ever has, actually worked? Or that, in theory, a free market would be a good thing?
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PostPosted: Wednesday, July 19th 2006 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margaret Beck wrote:
Well. It's pretty much a given that most organized crime rings are out to gain a profit. You could argue terrorist cells and street gangs were after something else (political change / sense of belonging), butt, like virtually everything, you can almost always reduce it down to money.

In a certain sense. I think it's far more prevalent to think that organized crime is filled with people who are lazy, or simply immoral: that they are perverse and like hurting people or that they want a quick buck. (Keep in mind that the "hurting people" here is not necessarily violent, although it's certainly that as well. A large number of people actually think that the mere distribution of the product is hurting people. In some cases - say, PCP - that's true, while in others - weed - it isn't.) While obviously black markets give places to these kinds of people - another reason to get rid of organized crime via decriminalization - mostly the upper echelons of drug rings are filled with incredibly intelligent, ambitious men. (Perhaps the "intelligence" here is of a more narrow, clever, commercial sort, yet that doesn't matter.) They simply capitalize on black markets because they exist, and their potential for profit is huge. And really, the higher you get in organized crime rings, the more they start to resemble corporations. At their highest levels, they are almost indistinguishable, except by the nature of their product - that is to say, legal on the one hand, illegal on the other.

I'm not saying you don't realize this, yet then I was never trying to convince you in the first place. I wasn't really trying to convince anybody. Just pointing it out.

Margaret Beck wrote:
I wasn't saying that LSD isn't profitable, I'm saying it's not REALLY profitable (like coke or opioids or amphetamines or cannabis). Given the factors you mentioned, it makes for little interest from the major crime rings. However, for the few skilled chemists who could make the stuff, it can be profitable, since they can supply to such a large percentage of the market, given the limited competition. So, you basically have a few operations providing all the LSD. And being very profitable.

That's exactly my point. You just described niche economics, and it is the exact same profile you'd apply to any niche producer or retailer, luxuries for instance. Small market, limited demand, high overhead, yet high payback on a per-item basis and a larger share of market control.

yet that's exactly the thing. A black market is JUST like any other market. Not "sort of," exactly. The only difference is that its product is illegal, so that the participants in the market have no legal recourse. This is what produces the violence, fraud and racketeering so often associated with organized crime. yet as far as the economic factors are concerned, it's just another market. People need to realize this before they can do anything intelligent about drugs. That people haven't realized this - attaching some kind of moral connotation to drug dealing, for one thing - is the reason why drug legislation is so fucked up in this country, and why relatively harmless substances like cannabis remain illegal.

Margaret Beck wrote:
Right now, I buy weed from a friend, who gets it from a local grower, whom I vaguely know. This is organized crime; the grower produces an illegal crop, the dealer sells the black market product to a number of individuals, who illegally purchase it. Now, if you decriminalize cannabis, that "organized crime ring" is suddenly legal.

If something is no longer illegal... it fails to be a crime.

I'm thinking that you mean't decriminalization would lead to a drop in -violent crime-, to which I would agree.

Don't think I'm so simple. Certainly organized crime, because it is illegal, is allowed far more leeway than other markets ought to be, which results in peripheral criminal fallout, like violent crime. And certainly decriminalization would eliminate almost all of that fallout, to the benefit of society generally.

yet that wasn't my main point. My main point was that decriminalizing drugs reduces organized crime, plainly and simply. This is important from a political standpoint, and vital from a judicial standpoint. First and foremost, it means 1) less clogged courts and prisons, and 2) people who have never done anything wrong in their life other than smoke weed free and at liberty, as they should be.

Margaret Beck wrote:
Do you think a "free market economy" can, or ever has, actually worked? Or that, in theory, a free market would be a good thing?

There's no reason to turn this into an even broader discussion of economics qua economics, yet in summary: mostly, not really, and yes.
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PostPosted: Friday, July 21st 2006 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
I know all about protectionism. Just because the US has a notably unfree economy does not mean that it isn't the most free nonetheless.


i think this point is pretty much inarguable. not, though, because i necessarily agree with it, more because i'm not entirely sure how you measure freedom, or even what it means in this situation. i'm not so sure of it's importance, in fact.


CubaLibre wrote:
As far as the internet is concerned, I think taxpayers have seen returns in spades. Consider for example the empowerment it gives to small businesses and individual consumers to sell their goods without the necessity of physical distribution and storage systems, a classic chunk of overhead that used to restrict many industries to big businesses with enough capital to clear it.


small business and individual-consumer profiting are still private business.


CubaLibre wrote:
the economy is not so globalized - yet - as to make individual national economies indistinguishable. Even the member nations of the EU are constantly bickering about their fellow members not being up to snuff, as it were. In fact, it's part of the protectionism that you outlined above that keeps the US slightly isolated (and therefore distinct) from the world economy as a whole. Tariffs and whatnot.


yeah, it's relatively easy to measure and understand GDP, GNP, etc. there's even a measure for market freedom...
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PostPosted: Tuesday, July 25th 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crackity Jonze wrote:
small business and individual-consumer profiting are still private business.

Well, sure. They're also the taxpayers, who you said weren't seeing returns on their tax dollars being used to fund the creation of the internet.

From a certain, yet very real, political point of view, we are all of us small business and individual consumers. We are, after all, a commercial republic.
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